If God knew that we would sin, why did he create the world?Our tendency in answering this question is to look at it from a man-centred perspective: what’s in it for us? Wouldn’t it have been better for us never to have sinned?
But the answer that the bible gives challenges us by taking a God-centred perspective. And it makes us step back and ask an even bigger question:
Why did God create the world at all?
God didn’t create the world primarily for our benefit, he did it for his glory. He created a world that would display his glory most fully and most perfectly. That is to say, every aspect of God’s character could be shown in its most extreme form.
If God had created a world in which no one sinned, what aspects of his character could he have shown? His creative power, his loving-kindness, his provision for his people.
But what about his mercy? Or his justice? Or his wrath?
And would we have seen even his creative power to its fullest extent if there had been no death and therefore no resurrection?
Could we have known the greatness of his loving-kindness if he had not shown it to faithless Israel?
Paul explains something of this in Romans 9:22-23
‘What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory…’
God’s wrath expended against unrepentant sinners demonstrates the riches of his glory, just as his mercy shown to the elect demonstrates his glory.
Stumble It!
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Why did God feel the need to prove anything about His character to Himself or to anyone, particularly the likes of His created sub-beings like angels and us? Why could He not have been satisfied to know this about Himself and leave at that? Why the big need to create a world and beings to whom you can show your glory? Was He not satisfied to just know it about Himself? Is He not all-sufficient? If there’s a true answer to this question, then the follow up question is Why, then, does He feel the need to create these very real people to show His glory to and expose these very real people, who He loves (?), to sin and evil and then send these very real people to hell to a very real suffering without hope for all eternity just to prove and display His glory to those who, by His won choosing, will not meet the same fate? Who is He doing this for and why? Isn’t He really just doing all of this for Himself and real, not imaginary, created beings burn in hell and suffer unending misery for all eternity because of it? We’re told that nothing in Him is lacking, but apparently, He was not just pleased just to know this about Himself and be satisfied with that.
Perhaps we place too much emphasis on this word “Glory”. In human terms it very much is intertwined with our egos. Does God have an ego? Or did he merely create us because he loves to create and loves those things that he creates?
Great questions, Bob. I’m not sure I have an answer, or at least not a full and satisfactory one. Here are some general reflections around the subject that maybe clarify how we should think about these kinds of things.
First: why was God not satisfied merely to know things about himself?
(i) There are things that are appropriate for God that are not appropriate for us who are not God. If the very essence of sin is the attempt to become ‘like God’ it follows that we cannot judge God by human standards. God can do those things that for us would be evidence of pride or self-righteousness etc. by virtue of the fact that he is God. So we need to be careful not to think about this issue from too much of a human perspective.
(ii) There’s something about the very nature of ‘glory’ that requires public display, I think. This isn’t ’showing off’ or ‘boasting’ but simply a necessary outworking of God’s character. I don’t think it’s a question of ‘proving himself’ to us or to the angels so much as a question of being who he is.
(iii) There are aspects of God’s character that are eternally seen in the intra-trinitarian relationships – his love and holiness, for example. But there are other aspects that aren’t. How would God be creator and redeemer had he not created/redeemed? How could he show his mercy or wrath?
(iv) How does this relate to God’s all-sufficiency? Tricky. God doesn’t change by virtue of his relationship to changing things. And yet his character is demonstrated differently as things change (see creation/redemption above). I think the technical answer to this has to do with mind-hurting issues of God’s eternal timelessness and immutability and I’m not sure I remember enough to explain that properly.
Second, who is he doing this for?
(i) Yes, quite right. Ultimately God is acting for his own benefit and his own glory. He’s God and that’s an appropriate thing for him to do.
(ii) And yes, potter and clay is an important biblical model to hold onto.
(iii) But with that we need to also assert as strongly as the bible does the reality of human responsibility. No one suffers in hell who does not deserve to on the basis of their own actions.
I don’t think that asking these kind of questions is an indication of ungenuine faith at all. But I do think that when we can’t find satisfactory answers we need to make sure that we can say something like, ‘I don’t know how all this fits together, Lord, but I know you and I know that you are good and just and loving and I trust this to you.’ That doesn’t mean stopping thinking and reading and asking, it just means doing those things in an attitude of faith. And if in doubt, going back to the bible and knowing that we can hold on to the truth there and leave the speculation for a while.
Hope that helps a bit.
Hey, I am also a Christian, however I struggle with questions like the example above. So, if God loves everyone of us and does not want any of us to go to hell, but live with him eternally, then why did God create the people who condemn themselves to hell? As God is all knowing, and thus, he knows whether you are going to hell or heaven before he creates you (even though you make the desicion your self), so why does he allow his children to live in the eternal flames of hell? As it seems he is the one condemning his own children, because he allows the people who he knows are going to choose to go to hell to make that desicion?
Willy, I think your answer exactly illustrates the problem of trying to answer this question from a human-centred perspective. He does know all those things and he does allow all of those things. My answer above tries to show what the bible says about this from a God-centred perspective and is the best that I can do by way of explaining why. Try reading Romans 9 slowly and carefully – I think it’s the clearest answer to this question in the bible. And make sure you’re asking the question with the right attitude – remembering that God is God and we are not.
Why is God such a mystery…like he is hidden? I have 3 children and I don’t hide from them. They don’t know me just by seeing my belongings, like my car for example…. hey, we must have a dad because there’s a car in the driveway!! Why can’t God make himself seen and walk and talk with us?…..we would still have free will to choose him or not and we wouldn’t have to go through life wondering if all this is in vain. Every human from the begining of time has been searching for God and we all have one little place in our minds with doubt because he has never been proven other than with faith. I’m a physical being and so are my kids and they can see and touch me and know that I am real. Why couldn’t God make us like the angels, in spirit? They had free wiil and could rebel……yet, they where with God in heaven. Also, when we go to heaven and all pain and crying will stop, aren’t we losing our free will? I sin on earth….I try not to but I do…so anyway, in heaven is God going to take away the temptation to sin? If he does why can’t he do it now, here on earth? I’m a christian but lately I’ve had all these questions popping into my head, I don’t like it…..I get the feelings in me that man made God up and what we can’t answere or understand about God we just say “it’s a mystery or it takes faith. How can we ever understand God when the bible says we cannot know the ways of God or understand them? I talk to God every day all day long and I have so many questions but I feel like I get few answeres. …Well, thanks for your time and God bless………………..matt
A couple of things;
How do you think God should reveal himself to us? We have no way of knowing how comprehensible he is but it safe to assume that being infinite we can never fully see him. One school of thought is that he has and continues to do so (partly) through the beauty of nature as well as the beauty of the human mind.
Another is his revelation of love, as supremely portrayed through the life and death of Christ.
And finally, we know absolutely nothing of ‘heaven’, if there is such a ‘place’ or what awaits us after these mortal bodies are dead. Everything we have conjured up is limited as well as prejudiced by personal view points. This is true in how we have come to se ‘angels’. Clouds and harps, any one?
Faith – it’s like any relationship. It ebbs and flows – it’s part of being ‘human’.
Wow, lots of questions. I have only just picked up this thread Ros – must have missed it so far.
Bob, to add one little picture to Ros’s: Jonathan Edwards comments that it is in the nature of a fountain to overflow, and the overflow doesn’t mean it is lacking or faulty. So it is in the nature of God’s glory to overflow without being lacking or faulty.
Matt,
God has made himself seen and walked and talked with us. If we’d lived in Palestine 2000 years ago, we would have seen him. And yet, amazingly, many of those people who heard Jesus’ teaching, who saw the impeccable character of his life, who experienced his amazing miracles, and who saw his death, still refused to acknowledge his authority over them.
Also, we don’t lose our free will in heaven. Free will is the ability to act according to my desires, NOT the ability to do absolutely anything at all (even God doesn’t have the sort of freedom to act against his own character and nature). Simply that, in the new heavens and the new earth, all my sinful desires will be removed. Why not here and now? It teaches us, trains us, and inspires us to praise God
How can you follow a God who murdered so many people and allowed the death of his own son? I used to be a Christian but now am not since I read the Bible completely. If for example, a presidental candidate came along who had done horrible, vile things in the past but promised that as long as you believed in and voted for him you would have peace and freedom years from now, but wouldn’t help prevent death, evil, disease right now would you vote for him? I wouldn’t.
God didn’t create sin. Adam and Eve were the first sinners so if you’re angry at anyone, it should be them, and Satan. They did it. Not God.
Like I told my roommate, (like I know anything), in the hardest of times, two things can happen, you either shrink your faith by letting Satan’s attacks weaken you or you keep believing. As soon as you make that choice to keep believing and/or growing in faith in God, Satan will work harder but Jesus will holder you tighter to Him and carry you. Be Encouraged. I hope you’ll come back to Him, He loves you and I, too, love you. Have a good one. :)
This question is often asked by me a lot lately, as my family is going through a pretty hard time right now which has put much stress on all of us. I pray constantly and have for years now. I’m only a teenager but I do question so much why God doesn’t help those who need it when he apparently has the power to do so. If the bible says he loves his children and we are his children, then why would he want to see so many of us suffer? I have not lost my faith in God and hope that I never do. But sometimes its hard to have faith when we have no proof as he has never shown himself to us in particular. The statement is often said that everything happens for a reason. But what reason could there possibly be for why such a great amount of horrible things happen in this world. I don’t have many of the answers I wish to have, nor do anybody in this world. I do not know why things are this way, or why God does not do what he is said to have the power to do, but I have not lost hope or faith and hopefully never do. I pray that he will bring a miracle to this world and everyone who needs one. But until that happens I’ll just keep on praying.
God Bless
=]
We must endure all that comes our way to be strengthen by God for Jesus endured all for us, so we must also endure for our Savior. To fight the last battle we must have suffered to be made strong through Christ Jesus. Remember always he who is in me is strongest, let the deceiver lead you the wrong path for if it is easy it cant be. If it narrow and hard than that is the way. For nothing is easy but God and Jesus are well worth the suffering that we must endure. I love you all and God Bless You.
suppose to be let not the deceiver lead you on the wrong path for if it seems easy than its probally wrong but if it is narrow than it is right. Sorry for the mistype.
Hi Aubrie.
I have often wondered about those same questions and for what it is worth I thought I would share some of the conclusions I have come to.
Often there isn’t a “reason” for someone’s suffering; there isn’t a simple ’cause and effect’ relationship to events; “obey God and you get blessed, disobey and you get zapped” (Jesus said as much in Luke 13 v1-5). It is very difficult to read the mind of God from circumstances and we often torture ourselves by trying. Our theological questions come down to this – “do we trust Jesus enough with our doubts?” That was something Martha & Mary had to come to terms with when they faced the seemingly inexplicable delay of Jesus in coming to their aid when their brother died (John 11).
Faith isn’t about us knowing all the whys and wherefores of events we don’t understand – it is about trusting that Jesus is who he said he is – the Lord of life and death – and finding contentment in his promises. The miracle you and I are looking for will be found when Jesus returns and God himself will wipe the tears from our eyes (Rev 21 v4).
God Bless.
I have been in something of a faith crisis lately too, wondering if I am after all destined for Hell – who really knows but God? Like the 1st person, I become so angry at God for not making us perfect. I wish I could never have existed at all – I don’t even want to go to Heaven, I just want the suffering of EXISTING to stop altogether. God is about love, and I have no love in my heart. I have prayed for many years for God to change my heart, to make my suffering stop, and the only guarantee is that it will be better once we finally get to Heaven, but on this earth we are pretty much guaranteed the opposite, and I really don’t want to live. I hate being alive and being depressed and loving absolutely nothing about life at all. It’s a terrible way to exist but I don’t commit suicide b/c I’m so scared I’ll wake up to this earth for eternity.
Dear Gig,
I am a bit of an interloper on this site but I hope you won’t mind if
I try to share some of my thoughts about the experience you describe.
In many ways I find that my faith is affirmed when I look at the state of the world and, indeed, my own heart. The scriptures give us a realistic interpretation of the common human experience. We live in a creation subject to frustration and futility (Romans 7&8) and even though as Christians we are regenerate we are also fallen. This helps us avoid a naive, pollyannish view of the Christian life. It is natural for us to feel this pain. Like you I wish my heart was more loving too!
I’m not sure I have an easy answer for you, but I find it a profound comfort to know that Jesus knows what it is to be truly human – to be tempted and to suffer as we do – Hebrews 2 etc. I have often doubted that having some philosophically abstract answer to life, the universe and everything is actually what we humans need. We need to know that what we experience is not uncommon and that Jesus – as God – could weep over Lazarus and reveal to us something of the heart of God himself.
God Bless.
Gig, if you would like to talk in private, my email is ocb@sharpiron.org. I’ve had some experience with the type of suffering you are going through.
Wow.. so many people have a lot of the same questions and frustrations as I do (and the depression that it sometimes leads to). Well I want to echo the comments of those that pointed to Romans. Check out Romans 7:15:
“I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.”
I often feel like that. I’m trying to do the right thing, but I fall back into bad habits so easily. And not just bad habits, but things I *hate* (like when you say “I’ll never do that again”, then end up doing it again..).
And check out Romans 7:22-24:
“For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?”
This guy sounds frustrated and feeling helpless! The writers of the Bible can clearly identify with our frustration. But the point is that God gave us power. He gave us the power to change. We can change our own minds, our actions, and our attitude. And just because we fall does not mean we are condemned.
Lots of Christians I know spend so much time beating themselves up over the things they’ve done wrong that they miss out on the point of being Christian. It’s to serve others, to do what Jesus did. Becoming a better person is part of that, but people that focus on their own issues all the time are not helping anyone. Just a thought… Not to ignore your own issues but reaching out and helping others ends up helping to heal ourselves. And the fact is that God does want to heal us (Psalm 147:3):
“He heals the brokenhearted
and binds up their wounds.”
and have us live life to the fullest (and this is life NOW, not in heaven) John 10:10:
“I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.”
That’s why Jesus said he came. To show us the path to a fuller life. So following the example of what he did I believe is following that path. And what he did is to love people, to heal people, express kindness to people, to stand up to the ignorant in society and tell them that their lives are bankrupt, and they are being hypocritical (the religious leaders of his day, which you can see parallels to in religious leaders of today Christian and other).
So I think studying what Jesus did and following his example is key. I don’t think he wanted us to just sit around reading the Bible and not acting on it. It’s too much philosophy it would make us crazy! He even said as much. Faith without action is meaningless. And the point is to test that faith. He doesn’t want our faith to be based on nothing. He wants us to go out into the world and do what he did and see for ourselves if we feel better about life. If we feel like there is hope and worth and meaning.
Ok I hope I haven’t rambled too far…
love and peace to all,
David
Hey Gig,
I know how it feels to be depressed and want to cease to exist. For years I was extremely depressed and went one step further, I wanted to commit suicide but God is good. Life was always meaningless and i always found faults in me and the things I did but God loved me regardless.
I just want to let you know that God can change you. As I like to say we can change our actions but only God can change our heart. And I know that God changed my heart. It’s a long process as somethings I am still battling with but God says that I am a new creation and I believe that I am (after repeating it to myself).
Even though we aspire to be perfect we are not and God gives us grace so that when we mess up we are not immediately damned to hell. Do not lose hope and faith in God because He WILL come through, it took years for me but He did. God has His own reasons for allowing us to go through what we go through and its so great to have a testimony that encourage other people. Its so great to know that God loves me and what I went through makes God more real to me, knowing that the changes that have occurred in my life were not because of me. I am grateful that He gave me many second chances.
Something that my friend told me once- we would be proud if we beat up on ourselves when we sin or to think that we cannot sin. We are not perfect, yet. We- you and I- will fall but thankfully God provides grace which allows us to repent and then forget the past and move forward towards the prize of Jesus Christ.
Things may seem bleak but God’s love never fails. He will come through, don’t allow ANYTHING to make you think that He wont.
My cry was in Psalms 28: 1-2
1 To you I call, O LORD my Rock;
do not turn a deaf ear to me.
For if you remain silent,
I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
2 Hear my cry for mercy
as I call to you for help,
as I lift up my hands
toward your Most Holy Place.
One more thing, although some people change instantly, other persons, like myself, experience an incremental change.
JN
Getting back to the original question. Why did God create the world when he knew we would sin? Or better yet, why did God create man when he knew beforehand some would choose Him and others would not, and end up in hell for their rebellion?
This is a question that I have struggled with for many years. In fact, it has up until lately been a stumbling block in my Christian walk. But that’s what Satan does. He finds weaknesses in our walk and faith to create separation from us and God.
As a diehard Calvinist this question becomes even harder to wrap my mind around.
Because I believe God predestinated some to glory and some to damnation it is even a harder pill to swallow. Why would a loving “all knowing” God create mankind, when from the beginning He knew who would be saved and who would perish? In essence, God knew who would choose Him and who would reject Him.
The answer I always got from my well meaning Arminian friends was man has his own freewill and because man rejects God he goes to hell on his own volition. Horse hockey! Although I don’t agree with freewill, let’s just assume for a moment that it exists for mankind. The question is still on the table. Why would God create us when he knew some would end up in hell forever?
The answer is very simple. There is NO Answer! I don’t mean to sound trite. I was reading Romans 9 last night and even though I’ve read this passage many times it hit me like a brick. The answer is that we should not question God. He did it for his glory. It’s very clear in this passage that God loves and God hates. God chooses some for eternal salvation and others eternal damnation. The question is even asked in verse 19: Why does God find fault in those that resist his will? Because He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy and compassion on whom he will have compassion. Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, “Why did You form me? Has not the Potter have power over the clay? Don’t allow this type of question to impair your walk with God.
Once again the Calvinist doctrine brings peace and understanding to so many scriptures. We are called and chosen. It is not who willeth or runneth but of Him who calleth and has mercy. He raise up Pharaoh to that He might show his power. I don’t understand why he did this and quite frankly I don’t need to.
Earlier I said there is no answer, but what I really mean is that there is no answer our human minds can grasp. God in his glory decided this is His plan for mankind before he created us. We cannot question God or his design for mankind. If we approach this from our limited viewpoint it can get us into trouble.
Re-read Romans 9 and ask God to give you peace and concerning this matter.
Romans 9: 11-24
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
I have alot of questions myself and if I knew all of the answers then I would be God. I am not God. As far as unanswered prayers goes, here is my spin on it. The world is far too complex to understand sometimes but *everything* happens for a reason. I remember the pain I went through when I finally let go of my sons father. I asked God, why would he do this to me. Why would he let me feel that pain. I was cheated on, lied to the entire time I mean the whole relationship was a lie and I was in love with a stranger then left a single mother. He was who I had given my virginity to. That’s who I saved myself for. I was so angry. I prayed God would tell me it wasn’t real and he would either help me get over it or give him back to me. Now, 5 years later, I am thanking God he didn’t answer those prayers. I am really thanking God for that. I have my son but if he answered my prayers I wouldn’t have my daughter, I wouldn’t have my fiance, God knows who, what or where I would be right now had he answered those prayers. All things have a reason and purpose. We all tie into eachother’s lives in a way that makes it more difficult for me to say God doesn’t exist than it does to say he does. Make sense? How are we even here. I have to slow down sometimes because if I think too deeply into it my brain feels like it’s frying, the world is just THAT complex. We will never have all the answers. Have you ever been in a situation where you said to yourself, “What if I took that exit, I might have been in that accident” have you ever thought, “If I wasn’t late for work this morning, could I have possibly died?” I mean this is how my mind functions, I would be scared to live if I knew all of the answers. When you find yourself in doubt (and we ALL at some point doubt our faith) then just look at the world around you. HOW. How could any of this be without a supernatural being behind it? I once heard an expression. If you smashed a clock into a thousand pieces, placed it in a bag and began shaking it, do you think you would ever get that clock back in working order, as if it were new again? That’s what I think about the universe. There’s just no way without him. To us, we have to “physically” see things to believe them because that’s what we are, physical beings. Our brains sometimes don’t understand that this world shows us God everyday. When I look at a pretty sunset, the clouds, trees, animals, childbirth, good memories, just all of the beauty in the world, to me it’s like you couldn’t get any closer to God than if you were physically walking with him. That’s just my spin.
To the author of this site, this is a wonderful site and you write SO well. I wish I had the tact and grace you do, your words really flow so well.
God – Almighty – Created earth and people knowing we would sin -> Knowing he had to send Jesus to save us -> Knowing people would need to find Jesus to go to heaven.. knowing who would choose him and be saved…. THUS a loving caring person living in China that never heard of Jesus would go to Hell? PLEASE tell me this makes sense…. NO! Why send Jesus then??? Silly isn’t it. Also why allow all the suffering and war??? God would then be GOD=SATAN…leaving us running around trying to please him so that He might choose us to be a lucky lotto winner for eternity. I do not believe in such a god.
God -> Not Almighty – Created people wishing them to live in harmony and peace -> But people changed and it made God sad…He had to do something to help us and send Jesus as an example of how to live in LOVE and PEACE… HE GAVE US FREE WILL, thus NOT knowing what we would do… MAKE SENSE… Jesus is not the way to salvation but the example for happiness on earth and peace. IMPORTANT: IT IS NOT IMPORTANT THAT JESUS DIED FOR US…IT IS IMPORTANT THAT HE LIVED FOR US…!!! It is not difficult to die for someone, especially if you love them…I would choose to die in my son’s place any day. I am sorry to say, but the Bible got it wrong in the new testament. God sent the Holy Spirit to help us… to LIVE!!! LOVE will be the all most important thing and we as people would then instead of condemning others try to help and make a difference…JESUS as example.. A person in Tibet, Angola or Antarctica may yet be saved as God wants all to be saved and be with Him. We choose not to live in love…divorce, killing others, Wars, abortion etc… and we move away from God’s love.
Being saved does not mean finding Jesus…it means living in love with one another like Jesus did. We are all born with the capacity to love and we choose to do so or not.
I can be wrong but at least I did not just believe in a story responsible for Wars, human right violations and the message of… tough luck if you are not on the BOAT to heaven, its not your fault.
Tell me what you think as this is an interesting topic for me.
God is still a mystery. I choose to hear the words LOVE is the most important of all…
Heres what I think: He created the world because it was the only way to have a real relationship with him, to have true love. If we were all made to love him than its not real, its “programmed” into us. The free will that man recieved when he ate from the tree of knowledge allowed sin to enter the world but at the same time it allowed the oppertunity for everyone to have a real and loving relationship with their creator.
Hanno,
I think you have a strange perception of who God and Jesus are. Suffering and war is because of what transpired in the Garden with Adam & Eve. Because of their rebellion and eating of the forbidden fruit… sin was introduced into the world. Not soon after… Cain killed his brother Abel. It’s been on a downward spiral ever since. We are living in a sinful world with a sinful nature. Because of this sin we in no way can ever “choose” God. Our sinful nature will reject God every time. We are totally separated from Him. It’s only though his grace and love that is revealed to us that we would call upon Him. We don’t “find” Him. He finds us!
You said the Bible “got it wrong” in the New Testament. God is the author of the both Old and New Testament. Are you saying that a perfect God got it wrong? How can you place your faith in Him if you think He is infallible?
I think you have a problem with God’s judgment. You are all about the Love and that’s fine. But He is also a God of judgment and He will have mercy upon those He wishes to have mercy on. This is scriptural. Free will is blasphemy and to believe in such nonsense is very much uninformed. Read Ephesians 1, Romans 9:11-23, John 6:39-44, Romans 8:29-30
This isn’t about God choosing some to hell and others to eternity in heaven. God in his wisdom simply allows those He did not predestined to remain in their sinful nature. He passes them over to their own lusts. We are all worthy of damnation but through his grace he saved some. I don’t understand why…but this is what the Bible teaches. In most Christian circles today this is not taught because “it doesn’t sound fair” so this concept is rejected and rewritten to be more appealing. We don’t know more than God and we can’t let our limited wisdom rewrite what the Bible teaches.
now i see it! I was predestined to be a failure!!!
Kenton, you have put it in perspective.
This afternoon I heard the lyrics in Toby Mac’s song, “I was Made to Love You”. My interpretation of this song’s message gives me such an empty, hopeless feeling. Why did God go ahead with his “Creation Project” when he knew how much suffering would be endured all for the sake of being glorified, worshipped, adored? And why on earth would he create plain old me?
The Toby Mac song, the blogs, my preacher’s sermons, the Bible have the same answer: I was made to love God, to adore Him . . . .
What a let-down. All these years I’ve wasted by desperately longing and endlessly working towards having people love ME and adore ME for some admirable achievement.
I better give my head a shake, pop this self-absorbed bubble I’m living in, submit to the fact that I am a “wretch” (Amazing Grace song) and once-and-for-all realize I can do nothing and that I am nothing without loving God first.
My little boy asks me, “Mommy, do you love God more than me?”
I respond, “No. I have no idea how to love God. It would be so awesome to be fond of God, to long and ache for him like I do when daddy is away. If I enjoyed God more than I enjoy chocolate covered strawberries, I would be face down, on the floor really, really worshipping him, praying to him, singing and dancing and sobbing for him. His bible would be my only book and I’d have bibles in every room, car, office cuz I would never be able to get enough of him. If I was so in-love with God, I would have no problem talking about him to EVERYONE! I wonder what it feels like to really, really love God like some people say they love him?”
Hey, maybe I should ask God to give me that kind of love for him. Oh no! Be careful what you pray/wish for! It seems God reveals himself to people who are suffering deeply. Would I finally know how to love God if my son went missing, my husband died?
Christians have responded to my questions in ways that conjure up more doubt:
“Have faith that what God says in the bible is true.”
But the bible was written, rewritten, translated by humans. There is a clause in the bible that says the words are all “God-breathed”. Who wrote that? Oh, right, it was a man. Maybe he lied, wanting people to believe his story, his philosophy, political viewpoint, whether true or not?
My head hurts, my heart aches when these doubts consume me.
Someone says, “Even if creation and God and Jesus are just a story, living the way Jesus did is noble and it would probably keep you out of a lot of trouble if you followed the advice in Proverbs!”
Maybe God created us, maybe we created him. If it’s all just a story, then when my mom and dad die, I won’t try to fool myself into believing that I’ll see them again. And if God is not a story, my relationship with my mom & dad will not be the same. Where’s the hope in that?
Hi guys, i have been reading your comments with great interest and i admire you for your honesty.if i may throw something into the mix-
God is triune , father, son and holy spirit. they exist throughout eternity as a perfect, loving family as one. Remember, as christians we worship the one God existing as three separate persons and the thing that makes them one is their incredible love for each other. they are in perfect harmony and perfect agreement.The words used in the old testament that the muslims and various other religions use against us is “THE LORD YOUR GOD IS ONE”.The word “one” doesnt mean one in the mathematical singularity , the hebrew word for “one” is the same word used when the lord said that a man shall leave his mother and father and join with his wife to become “one” flesh.He is indicating a unity of more than one, but functioning as one- a perfect family.They are not three gods, three gods would be three individuals, they are three persons, the difference between an individual and a person is- an individual is independant and needs no one, a person is personal and relational. a person has to exist in relation to another- therefore what does it mean that we are made in the image of God? it means we were made to be in relationship, just as the father, son, and spirit are, and we are therefore also meant to be in a relationship with our creator.father, son are relational terms in the make up of God, they are equal with the spirit but the father cannot exist without the son and the spirit cannot exist without the father and son. when i say relational, i mean, you cant be a father without a son, and you cant be a son without a father.Iwould not be here without the prior relationship between my mother and father.The reason im explaining this is, the bible collapses if you dont read it with the triune God in mind, once you get around that,things become clearer.
Lets see how they work together- the father wills it, the son executes it empowered by the spirit. you see this happening from genesis through to revelation.in the book of John you see “in the beginning there was the word,and the word was with God and the word was God.” the bible is clear that Jesus is the word and the universe was created by Gods word.In genesis the spirit is hovering over the formless earth in order to anoint the word (Jesus)to create.In john we see the spirit in a form of a dove hovering over the waters of the jordan in order to annoint Jesus to go out and begin his ministry, and the father speaks from heaven.
So,we have the triune God, and his very being is love.Love has to be shared. there has to be something to love otherwise there cannot be love. The father, son, and spirit share this incredible , perfect love which explodes out into creation.God knew creation would fall into sin, however the plan of salvation was already in place.
The son was so willing to deal with the trinitarian fury that he willingly separated from his father and entered our dimension as one of us in order to pay the fine we deserved. He had to be God to pay the penalty, and he had to be human in order to die.We actually were not involved, the plan of salvation that was introduced and executed by God, packaged and given to us as a gift. If Jesus was living in such a perfect, loving environment with his father, why did he do this? what was missing in heaven that made him lower himself and endure such suffering, our blessed hope is to go and be with him in heaven, what was his blessed hope that he actually took the totally astounding step that he did.he didnt just die, he suffered immeasurably more than any human could handle, he took the past, present and future sins into his body and cried out exactly what we cry out “why” -he bargained with his father in gethsemany as the blood ran out of his pores to please let this cup pass from him, he took up his cross and with immeasurable resolve , went on to be lynched, hung, drawn and quartered, as isaiah put it- you couldnt recognise if he was human. Yet he was innocent.
What was missing in heaven that made him go through all that? it was you, you were missing, he could have left you as a child of satan, but he didnt, he loves you that much.
The questions you ask are good and relevant, and there are some fantastic answers but dont forget,Jesus knows why, hes been there done that, put your faith and trust in him, he will give you the answers in time.I suggest you look at a website http://www.gotquestions.org its fantastic and bible based. it will help you a lot.
God bless you all
Hmmmm, well this is all very interesting. I was a Christian but at some point this fact removed me from fellowship.
There are now millions of people who are burning, in agony, faces creased in incessant pain, torment beyond imagination, limbs torn, emotions stretched like rubber that can never break and in a world of pain for ETERNITY.
For them my heart grieves so strongly that it brings tears to my eyes……But God knew this would happen. I find it very difficult to separate the God that we are supposed to follow by “faith” and one that would ‘create’ knowing that there would be so much carnage for so few survivors.
I used to believe in God and the bible, but the same questions came up that some of you have been talking about.
Namely, if God is omnisceint ( all knowing), Omnipotent ( all powerful ) and Omnipresent ( everywhwere at the same time) Why would he conduct this grand experiment? He would already know that we would all have a sinful nature and would not be acceptable to him, as he can tolerate no sinfulness to be in his presense, He would already know that he would be required to send billons of his childen to eternal damnation and he would already know that he woul need a remedy to this problem – Jesus, So why in the hell would he go ahead with this plan when he is supposed to be all about love? And why would the creator of the universe need or desire the praise of his creations. God sounds very insecure to me.
And whats all the nonsense about he did it for his Glory, he’s GOD, why would he need to be glorified? Does God have really low self esteem and he needs us to praise and worship him to feel better about himself? Common sense will tell you that none of this makes any sense.
The only answers I ever hear are that we can’t know God’s mind or his ways are above our ways, sounds like a cop out to me.
Thanks for listening
ok. why would god let us come to earth to sin, break all of his rules..? and if he loves us why would he let us go to helll?….
why would god let people go to hell if he really loved us??
Dave – how do you compare that ultimate good would be for God to never have created versus a life that faces pain and suffering? We cannot imagine if life would have been better, since there is quite literally nothing to compare.
-on one hand there’s pain and suffering with the ability to experience divine goodness
-and then there’s nothing.
who are we to say that one is better than the other, when we cannot experience the other.
How would I, if I did not exist, profit by not existing? we don’t have to figure out if it was better to not exist… we do exist, so we are left to figure out – If God is good and there’s evil in the world, how does this work? Which the solution could very well be free will. God cannot both give man free will and the inability to choose things that will cause them harm or pain.
for us to say that God created us for His glory may not be the best way to explain why God created the world. It may have been for our benefit to experience His glory. Since His glory wouldn’t cease if we never existed. If He’s glorious then He’s glorious and people being present or not doesn’t change that.
and may i also add, that we would have experienced the fullness of God’s greatness had we not sinned. to say otherwise is to say that God wanted us to sin. would nullify everything that He has said about Himself.
it is said that the bible was written only in latin and greek before i was translated into thousand different languages today. i’d like to know the origin of the text that’s written on the bible.
Ngomso, you’re half right. The bible was originally written in three languages – most of the Old Testament in Hebrew, the rest of the Old Testament in Aramaic, and the New Testament in Greek.
The text that you’ll find in a modern English version has been translated directly from these original languages, using the ancient documents as primary evidence. You can trust what you read there.
why does he create the world and finally man?
In what way does GOD’s touch contribute to the invincibility of the human spirit?